The Birth of John the Baptist

topic posted Sat, June 24, 2006 - 4:40 PM by  Unsubscribed
Today (24 June), the Church celebrates the Solemnity of the Birth of John the Baptist. The story is iin the second chapter of Luke's gospel. Elizabeth (John's mother) had been pregnant for six months when the angel of Gabriel appeared to Mary. (The Church celebrates that mystery, the Annunciation, on 25 March, nine months before the Nativty on 25 December.)

I was raised Southern Baptist and knew nothing about the feast days of the liturgical calendar. After becoming Roman Catholic, I learned about the seasons of the liturgical year (Advent/Christmas, Lent, Easter, and Ordinary Time). I find them meaningful and conducive to a more rounded prayer life than I would have if I but followed my whims. (Not that I don't do that IN ADDITION to staying mindful of the liturgical calendar.)

The story of John the Baptist haunts me. It has since childhood. It shall continue to, I'm sure. My life would be poorer without it.

What does the life and death (-that's celebrated in late August, the 29th, I believe) of John the Baptiist mean to you?
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  • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

    Sat, June 24, 2006 - 11:28 PM
    users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/birthday.htm
    You probably already know this teaching but may be interesting to discuss, David
    I have no opinion in the matter myself.
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      Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

      Sun, June 25, 2006 - 7:13 PM
      Mark-do you mean haunt as in tragic? I too find the story rather haunting. But then the whole story is rather haunting as well. The good news is, it has a happy ending. This is rather old news, but thought you might be interested in the story, since you brought up
      John the Baptist.

      www.religionnewsblog.com/8357-.html
      • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

        Sun, June 25, 2006 - 10:21 PM
        I think that John the Baptist may be about the most enigmatic figure of the New Testament. What did his life mean? How did he prepare the way of the Lord? I mean, chowing down on locusts and wild honey would make even a vegan puke. Seriously, though, what did his life mean? How did he really make ready His way?

        I think that, while celebrated, John, in addition to being enigmatic, may also be terribly overlooked. One has the sense of his great importance in the story, but he is clearly give short shrift.

        Thanks for asking the question, Mark. This gives me (yet) another thing to think and pray about!

        D.
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          Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

          Mon, June 26, 2006 - 9:00 AM
          I guess the main thing about John's story is the contrast it provides for the story of Jesus. They were both preachers who were killed by powerful men who bore them no personal animosity.
          John is seen as the last of the OT prophets, the one who pointed to those faithful to the old covenant the lamb of God who would bring about a new one.
          I always thought his death sad. It's one thing to be killed for what you believe in. In a way we can say John was, but in the story, it's because of spite that a man who didn't want to kill John orders him killed.
          The exchanges between the two, Jesus and John, are fraught with tension. John may have been the forerunner, but he wasn't clear what Jesus was up to. ("Are you the one who is to come or should we wait for another?" It's as if John were saying, "Get off your duff and DO SOMETHING, man,")
          And I wonder why John himself didn't follow Jesus. "There goes the guy with all the answers. 'Bye!" You'd think he would think, "I'm sticking to him like glue."
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      Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

      Mon, June 26, 2006 - 9:59 AM
      Thanks for posting the link. I was vaguely familiar with this notion but appreciate the in-depth coverage. Frankly, I don't make a lot of it. (I don't think the ancients were as concered with dates as we are, so I doubt any certain days were meant to be revealed in this way.) But it's good to be reminded ocassionally that some people are paying a lot of attention to things I gloss over. Challenges me to re-consider my priorities.
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        Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

        Mon, June 26, 2006 - 12:05 PM
        Saint John the Forerunner was just that. He prepared the way for Christ and even praised by Christ as the Holiest of Men. He is honored on the Iconastasis with a place immediately next to the Lord. His role was very clear to him. He did not follow Christ because that was not the plan. Christ did not tell him to follow as he did to the other Apostles like Peter and Andrew as they were fishing. They had been prepared for what they would be asked to do - to drop everything, leave their home, their family, their way of life and follow Christ.

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          Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

          Mon, June 26, 2006 - 2:54 PM
          The praise of John by Jesus is enigmatic: Of men born of women, none is greater than John the Baptist, yet the least in the kingdom is greater than he. Well, why wasn't John IN the kingdom? What did "kingdom" mean before the Passion, anyway? Such verses are hard to parse. And too the one where John sends a message to Jesus: "Are you the one who is to come, or should we wait for another?" If John always knew who Jesus was, then what is the meaning of that question?
          • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

            Mon, June 26, 2006 - 6:44 PM
            Mark, good question! I had no answer so I went to look. This is a good explanation not perfect and even create more questions! Dave
            www.bswett.com/1998-08Watershed.html
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              Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

              Tue, June 27, 2006 - 8:19 AM
              The Church remembers Saint John the Forerunner on six separate feast days, listed here in order of the church year which begins on September 1:

              September 23 - Conception of St. John the Forerunner
              January 7 - The Commemoration of St. John the Forerunner (main feast day, immediately after Epiphany on January 6)
              February 24 - First and Second Finding of the Head of St. John the Forerunner
              May 25 - Third Finding of the Head of St. John the Forerunner
              June 24 - Birth of St. John the Forerunner
              August 29 - The Beheading of St. John the Forerunner

              He that was greater than all who are born of women, the Prophet who received God's testimony that he surpassed all the Prophets, was born of the aged and barren Elizabeth (Luke 1:7) and filled all his kinsmen, and those that lived round about, with gladness and wonder. But even more wondrous was that which followed on the eighth day when he was circumcised, that is, the day on which a male child receives his name. Those present called him Zacharias, the name of his father. But the mother said, "Not so, but he shall be called John." Since the child's father was unable to speak, he was asked, by means of a sign, to indicate the child's name. He then asked for a tablet and wrote, "His name is John." And immediately Zacharias' mouth was opened, his tongue was loosed from its silence of nine months, and filled with the Holy Spirit, he blessed the God of Israel, Who had fulfilled the promises made to their fathers, and had visited them that were sitting in darkness and the shadow of death, and had sent to them the light of salvation.
              Zacharias prophesied concerning the child also, saying that he would be a Prophet of the Most High and Forerunner of Jesus Christ. And the child John, who was filled with grace, grew and waxed strong in the Spirit; and he was in the wilderness until the day of his showing to Israel (Luke 1:57-80). His name is a variation of the Hebrew "Johanan," which means "Yahweh is gracious."
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                Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                Tue, June 27, 2006 - 11:33 AM
                The only two of those feats the Catholic Church observes are the birth and beheading of John the Baptist. Why are the findings of his head regarded as commemorations of him? Granted, it's his head, but these events took place after his death.
                As for the rest, none of this addresses the question about the relation of Jesus and John in the passages I mentioned. I take it you have nothing to add there?
          • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

            Tue, June 27, 2006 - 8:11 AM
            isn't there a theory - that during those 3 days before Jesus came back to earth, He went to Hades to get moses and the prophets and bring them to heaven. Isn't John a prophet?
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              Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

              Tue, June 27, 2006 - 11:30 AM
              Yes, that's part of the Apostles' Creed: "He descened into hell." The meaning is the underworld (-not a place of damnation) and he 'preached to the captives.' This is mentioned in one of Peter's NT epistles, though I can't give you chapter and verse. (I will add that not everyone reads those verses that way!)
              • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                Tue, June 27, 2006 - 6:08 PM
                Mark,
                A pastor once told me that in the gospels when the apostles ask "who is this?" or What is He? it was a technique the writer used to make the reader say "Jesus! Son of God"

                but, do you ever wonder if John the baptist doughted?
                Or could it be he wanted his followers to know that Jesus was Jesus?
                Or Was he saying, Jesus, get me out of this prison?
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                  Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                  Wed, June 28, 2006 - 5:16 AM
                  I few years back, I thought a lot about the passages describing exchanges between Jesus and John. Some of the research suggested that John was egging Jesus on when he said, 'Are you the one who is to come or should we wait for another?' That is, John didn't DOUBT who Jesus WAS but he was impatient for Jesus to bring judgment already.

                  Another reading suggests that these exchanges bring out the difference between the kind of messiah John expected and the kind Jesus proved to be. (This is a theme of many another gospel passage, of course.)

                  It would be easy to read those passages and have NO IDEA that John and Jesus were relatives---there's nothing personal in the exchanges. (This is one reason I grumble about "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild" sentimentality; Jesus put mission first.) I wonder if Jesus went to the burial of John: John was not only the man who baptized him and a cousin of Jesus, but Jesus also said John was the greatest of men born of women. Which, by the way, is a troublesome phrase, as Jesus too was born of a woman. Paul refers to Jesus as coming at the fullness of time and being born of a woman. Of course, we see Jesus as a Divine Person, not as a human one.
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                    Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                    Wed, June 28, 2006 - 12:51 PM
                    I was involved with a gnostic sect for a while, and the view they held was that John represents the ego. I'm assuming they view this character as the most righteous aspect of what we call me, myself, and I, yet still he is just ego.

                    Furthermore, they say there is an initiation in the internal worlds where the rulers cut your head off, and that is basically the decapitation of John.

                    A whole series of initiations are spoken of, and I will say that these groups do indeed have remarkable power in the physical/spiritual world, but I don't believe that violent inductions automatically prove a group is holy. Otherwise street gangs and fraternities are holy.

                    Still, it's true that suffering builds character, and suffering together develops mutual admiration, lending strength to a group's purpose. So in the end it comes back to the question of the group's purpose, and when I look into that I'm quite puzzled, because I don't know what the purpose of many groups really is.

                    The purpose of the police is to enforce the law, but the law can be twisted in many ways. Sometimes it seems that the law should not apply, as when you're stopped at a red light at 3 AM in the morning and nobody is around for miles.

                    Is it ever right to disobey a superior? What if they order you to kill somebody and your conscience objects? Who is superior, the person or my conscience? Does God speak more through one than another?

                    From what I can make of it, John was calling people to Justice, but as a "voice calling out in the wilderness". "The light that shined in the darkness, but the darkness didn't understand". Like that darkness, I often wonder, What is Justice?

                    Is John the voice of my conscience that calls me to reflect on my sin, on my separation from God, what that means, and all that it entails? It would seem to be a prerequisite to any understanding of Jesus, as if I don't understand my sin, I clearly cannot accept that Jesus is my savior.

                    Does the death of Moses relate to John in any way? I ask this because Moses assigned Joshua (i.e., Jesus) the task of leading the people into the Promised Land, but he himself was not allowed to enter. He was granted the right to see, but not to enter, just as John was able to see Jesus, yet would not be a great one in the Kingdom Come.

                    Moses also shared with John the vocation of preaching to ignorant captives. The hebrews Moses preached to didn't mind being slaves so much, and many of the hebrews John preached to weren't even aware of the fact that they were slaves. Moses brought Law to the people, and so did John.

                    John baptizing with water and Jesus baptizing with fire is another puzzle. What is that about? What did fire and water mean to them on a symbolic level? Or are they talking about elemental magic, as some mystical schools contend? Such magical practices are condemned by most Christian sects, and apparently by the Bible as well, so what are we to make of such passages?
                    • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                      Thu, June 29, 2006 - 6:38 AM
                      Where does it say John won't be there?
                      And i thought Jesus baptised with the spirit?

                      And about condemned magical practice, worshiping other gods is bad
                      fortelling the furure - That's because God doesn't want us to worry about what may or may not happen, which is different then what the prophets did. fortunetelling pulls from things not quite laid out, and the future is always changing, even as God's plan is laid out. It's the free will factor.

                      Out of curiousity, biblicly what else is wrong about magical practice? I'll have to research it - the thing is about magical practice is that people go there before they should, and not having enough faith, in the right stuff to keep them out of harms way. the thing is the fight between good and evil is very real, and getting caught in the crossfire is not good.

                      Denny :-) that Gnostic sect, they didn't believe that people in the gospels were real?

                      • Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                        Sat, July 1, 2006 - 12:03 AM
                        Jesus says that even the least in the Kingdom will be superior to John.

                        Spirit is synonymous with life, breath, fire. Hence, Jesus baptizes with fire.

                        Some people don't worship any gods and still see what is typically called the future. Not everybody speaks of this type of thing, so does that make it fortune telling? If I'm not telling, how could it be? Anyway, I don't think seeing the future is a sin in itself, otherwise Jesus couldn't have foreseen so many things.

                        The gnostic sect did believe the people were real, but they said they were something like characters in a play. The passion is typically viewed as instructive by such groups, rather than redemptive.
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                    Re: The Birth of John the Baptist

                    Thu, June 29, 2006 - 7:47 AM
                    "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild" sentimentality

                    This is a purely Western phenomenon. Eastern Christianity does not view Christ in this way at all. It is most apparent when you look at the difference in art between the East and the West. The East has maintained a very somber, masculine feel, while the West has evolved to a softer, feminine feel.

                    I don't see your quote from Matthew as enigmatic at all. Clearly Christ was pronouncing the glory of the coming Kingdom - the Resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

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