"He who separates himself seeks his own desire; he quarrels against all sound wisdom." [Proverbs 18:1, NASB]
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 3:44 PM<"He who separates himself seeks his own desire; he quarrels against all sound wisdom." [Proverbs 18:1, NASB]
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LOL! so does this speak against your stance on the authority of the Church? You have recieved much in the way of sound wisdom to the contrary. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 4:48 PMwho is separating them self? -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 5:11 PM<who is separating them self?>
Well that is more or less my question. By denying the authority of Jesus and accepting the authority of a Church, that individual is making a distinction between himself and other believers, and is therefore seperating himself. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:20 AM>>>>>>By denying the authority of Jesus and accepting the authority of a Church, that individual is making a distinction between himself and other believers, and is therefore seperating himself. <<<<<
YOu're assuming that Jesus did not found a church on earth. The Bible suggests otherwise.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:51 AM<YOu're assuming that Jesus did not found a church on earth. The Bible suggests otherwise. >
Not so, but more specifically I am denying the church he founded is ruled by men. I am a member of the kingdom of God and Jesus'es church, which are one in the same. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 11:46 AM>>>>>more specifically I am denying the church he founded is ruled by men.<<<<<
You seem to have set yourself up as a leader in this church, Ricardo, as you see yourself being fit to decide who is and who is not a member.
Threre's nothing problematic about a church on earth being ruled BY Christ but THROUGH men in the same way the Temple was ruled BY God but THROUGH priests. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:23 PM<You seem to have set yourself up as a leader in this church, Ricardo, as you see yourself being fit to decide who is and who is not a member. >
I do not decide who is and who is not a member, I accept all who say Jesus is lord, as Christian, though many will prove not to be, but not to me, to God. I have not judged anyone. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 8:11 AM
>>>>>>I do not decide who is and who is not a member, I accept all who say Jesus is lord, as Christian, though many will prove not to be, but not to me, to God. I have not judged anyone. <<<<<
Oh, I must have mistaken you for that Ricardo who says that Catholics aren't Christians. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:15 AM<Oh, I must have mistaken you for that Ricardo who says that Catholics aren't Christians. >
LOL! I may have in haste, but to be clear I believe that anyone can be a Christian, Catholic or otherwise, I know several here who are both. But I do not believe that Catholism is a Christian religion. I feel that those Christians that the within that church are there for Gods purpose, and he shall reveal to them in his time when to come out of her. I have not in anyway with held my critism of that church and its doctrines. -
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Unsu...
Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 12:21 PMThe nature of the Church is to be understood as the Church of the Triune God. The Holy Trinity is the ultimate basis and source of the Church’s existence and, as such, the Church is in the image and likeness of God. This being in the image of the blessed Trinity constitutes the mode of the Church’s existence, which, in fact, reveals her nature. Being in God, the Church reflects on earth God’s unity in Trinity. What is natural to God is given to the Church by grace.
The grace of the Trinity is the starting point for understanding the nature of the Church, and especially for her unity in multiplicity, as the Holy Spirit shares one life and one being. The three distinct and unique Persons are one in life and in nature. Similarly, the Church exhibits a parallel multiplicity of persons in unity of life and being. The difference between God and the Church is that, in the former, multiplicity in unity is the truth, whereas in the latter, this is only a participation in the truth. In patristic language the former is ousia, while the latter is metousia. The unity of the three divine Persons in life and being is, therefore, the prototype of the unity of the Church’s persons in life and in being. As Christ Himself says in His prayer for the Church: "even as Thou O Father are in me and me in Thee, so they may be one, that the world may believe that Thou has sent me." The mark of unity is collegiality and love, and not subordination. The Church is an eikon of the Holy Trinity, a participation in the grace of God.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:26 PM<Threre's nothing problematic about a church on earth being ruled BY Christ but THROUGH men in the same way the Temple was ruled BY God but THROUGH priests. >
It was problematic or why replace it? Jesus delivered the kingdom of God and the holyspirit so that all men/women could be priest on to God.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 12:02 AMI am intrigued by the number of modern Christians who admit that they are not a part of a regularly assembling body of believers. Self-seclusion from Christian community, I suspect, is usually a flight from accountability to others. This can be spiritualized of course--with a fond looking back to the holy hermits of old--but it is really motivated by selfish desire. An interesting contrast between Prov. 18:1 and Hebrews 10:25 is that the latter exhorts fellowship for the purpose of stimulating one another to "love and good deeds," while the former says a repercussion of the not-so-holy hermitage is that the hermit "quarrels against all sound wisdom." Assemblers can be touched by exhortation, hermits often cannot. Just something that seemed thought-provoking. -
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Unsu...
Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 5:03 AMOr it is coming out from a church that no longer follows Jesus. Or it is because of illness that keeps them from going out. Or it is because there can be more edification from a podcast from a really good pastor than hanging out with a bunch of "Christians" that are neither hot nor cold.
There are so many reasons for this leaving a church. Leaving a church is not leaving the body of believers.
<but it is really motivated by selfish desire>
Maybe this is true with some people, but even so - who are we to judge the hearts and minds of men?
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Anyway, thanks for the post. It is good to think about why we ourselves might be doing something.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 11:35 PMNo, it actually returns to an earlier question posted about refusing to assemble yourself with other believers. Sorry, maybe you're more systematic in your posts. My mind sometimes wanders back to topics already discussed.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 7:44 PMAmen Joseph!!! That is what I have been trying to explain to the leaders of these denominational churches. I have a scripture to add to yours...
John 13:35
"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 12:28 AMLOL!
I admit I didn't think of it as a criticism of denominationalism. Touche.
Of course, we would have to recast the verse as "They that separate themselves..."
I laugh, because I belong to an organization that a few generations ago called itself "the Sanctified church," and took very seriously the admonition to "come out from among them, and be ye separate." They extended the application of that command beyond overt sinners, and included the liberal churches as groups from whom they needed to separate! They openly questioned whether those liberal organizations were populated with genuine Christians.
I'm sure they thought that they were responding to how erstwhile believers were straying from biblical doctrine. I'm sure they thought they were obeying the command to "withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly." Nonetheless, their seclusion sounds to my modern ear like the mistake of the prophet Elijah... so convinced that no one else is serving God, when in fact He has reserved to Himself thousands who never bowed a knee to Baal!
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 11:56 AMYou sure do seem stuck on this subject, Joseph. Are you listening to the hearts of the people that are telling you why they are drawn out of the mainstream? It doesn't seem like it; it seems like you just want to judge and stereotype us. It is each Christian's responsibility to listen to the voice of God and to follow where He leads. You may not like where God leads another man; you may not be able to sum it up according to your formula. Let God be God. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 3:15 PM>>>Self-seclusion from Christian community, I suspect, is usually a flight from accountability to others.<<<
ugh- tough one, for me anyway. in some ways that is true.
for the most part, i just have a slightly different opinion than the church.
in a number of ways i feel like a Church puts so much emphasis on the evils of certain sins while completely ignoring others, making some of us "sinners" compared to the rest of the church, when in reality we're all sinners.
this is what it comes down to for me
>>>>It is each Christian's responsibility to listen to the voice of God and to follow where He leads.<<<
some are drawn to church , some aren't. My mom is way involved in her church, she loves it. I do things differently, and she has never bothered me about it once, she knows i'm as saved as she is.
I don't think it is right for either side to try and shame the other into going to or rejecting churches
I know it isn't right.
THE HERMIT- of course in the story NEVer talks to anyone at all, and really in secualr society you can be a hermit form Christians and still be around people, and there is definitely something to that.
as somewhat of that hermit myself, it isn't easy , and things like tribe help.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:19 PM<I don't think it is right for either side to try and shame the other into going to or rejecting churches
I know it isn't right.
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I believe that a church can be a great place for Christian works, and even a bad one can have good Christians in them. Churchs are a cultural phenomenon, more then they are a spiritual one. I know many Christians who completely disagree with the doctrines of the churches they are in, but they remain because it is apart of their heritage and culture. A Christian is defined by love, and it doesn't matter what denomination or if you belong to a Church at all, ultimately we are accountable to God first, each other second, and woe to those that would put men before God.
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 11:21 PMThorn, would you ever consider having a worship service in your home? Would your mother be comfortable joining you to pray corporately, read from the scriptures, praise the Lord in song? And are there some Christian friends that could join you? Frankly, if you are wary or resistant to the organized church, why not take the rudiments of the worship experience into your own hands?
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 10:54 PMKelsey, you couldn't actually be reading my posts. Nothing I've written on this topic argues for the organized church or the mainstream. I've encouraged believers who are isolated from Christian fellowship to physically reconnect with other believers. As I mentioned before, those connections can be informal... that is the cornerstone of the "emerging church" and house church movements. I have been a member of a house church... I value the small, intimate fellowship.
But I do have a burden on my heart for a generation that professes a relationship with Christ, yet enjoys no regular fellowship with other Christians. So I try to stoke conversations about this matter in the online communities where I've met many such unmoored believers. I am sorry you view my provocative questions as judgmental... but I'm also a little surprised. I thought your post in the other thread eloquently explained how important fellowship with other believers is to you personally. You didn't write like an advocate for hermitage. Why are we at loggerheads on this subject? -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 9:23 AMWell, I'm sorry if I mistook you. I do think it's important, I just know it's something that God has provided for me. I could, and have, on my own volition sought out Christian company..a lot of the times being sorely disappointed. Then there are God-appointed interactions I have had that have been spirit-filled and Kingdom-glorifying that were with the most unexpected people and in unexpected places. My point is that if we are listening to God, He will guide us where we, personally, need to be.. even if it seems unlikely. Sometimes we have to go through the wilderness with God, and God alone, before we can be who he needs us to be for His purposes. I understand that your heart is to encourage, but I wondered if you were really listening to people's answers or if you already had your mind made up. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 1:38 AM>>>>Thorn, would you ever consider having a worship service in your home? Would your mother be comfortable joining you to pray corporately, read from the scriptures, praise the Lord in song? And are there some Christian friends that could join you? Frankly, if you are wary or resistant to the organized church, why not take the rudiments of the worship experience into your own hands?<<<<<<<
well my mom and i live on opposite sides of the continent, but when she comes to visit we go and check out missions (im in Cal, she's in NY)
and sometimes i go to church with her. we talk often and of course there is always some sort of praying , so in ways we have a worship going on.
but yes, pretty much that is how it happens here, a few friends talking about God. -
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Re: the not-so-holy hermit
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 2:32 AMBy your own description, Thorn, you DON'T sound like a Christian hermit. And if you and your friends just endeavor to meet regularly for prayer and talking together about God, then you have a fellowship. You don't need to give your group a name, or take up offerings, or rent a storefront, to be a church. You just need to worship together, exhort one another, love one another... (come to think of it, that's hard enough, isn't it?)
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